As an instructor, I've noticed that students frequently correct minor errors I've commented on and ignore higher order concerns. These include thesis statements, topic sentences, opposing arguments in persuasive essays, and elaboration of interesting but under-developed ideas.Is this because it's easier to fix grammar and punctuation errors than it is to think more deeply? Or is it because students believe the lower-order concerns (surface errors) are more important than the higher order concerns (big picture)?
Following are a few nuggets of advice in "The Third Voice" that I liked especially:* We need to translate teacher comments into questions that spark conversation with the student about his or her work;* We need to break down the steps that the student needs to take so he or she isn't overwhelmed.When we're not sure what a professor means by a written comment, I believe we all encourage our student writers to confer with their instructors. This is the students' responsibility and part of their taking ownership of their work.What's your perspective, as tutors, students, and professors?
Posted by ffitzgerald at 12:40 PM
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I do think that it is easier at times for students to focus on the surface feature errors than it is to think deeply about content issues or HOCs. I also think that having good grammar has been so drilled into students' heads that they think it is more important than many other issues. As long as their grammar is correct, it must be a good paper!
ReplyDeleteOne of the comments that I particularly liked was the one about if we don't understand the comment from the instructor to send the student back to his/her instructor for clarification. Sometimes I feel like a broken record with the amount that I say, "You'll have to ask your instructor." But it is true, I can't read their instructor's mind and I don't want to give the student the wrong information. I think that is one of the most important ideas in the article.
I agree with Holly about the surface features. I have encountered a lot of students who want to only focus on spelling and grammer. It is difficult to convince them to leave it alone for now.
ReplyDeleteI liked the comment in the article about teacher comments not being heard by the student if they feel judged or rejected. I have often felt this way when other people looked at my papers. That is why I like the Writing Center, because the paper still feels like it is mine. The student does all of the work. All the tutor does is act as a guide. That is why I like the Tutor Handbook where it says that we are coaches, not teachers.
As of today, I have not had the pleasure of helping students in the Writing Center and, therefore, I do not have a view point of a writing tutor.
ReplyDeleteI do, however, have the view point of a student, and I have to agree with Holly in that the concept of grammar, spelling and basic sentence structure is more often than not emphasized in our school systems over higher order concerns such as assignment understanding and overall paragraph structure and flow of ideas.
I believe that the key to helping the students in the Writing Center must first start in the classroom and with initial instruction. Teachers and professors should state to the students what the main focus of a paper should be, i.e. don't worry about the spelling and grammar until there a good foundation to work with. Also, teachers and professors should inform the students about how a paper is graded; what margin comments mean as opposed to end note comments and what the student should focus on first when correcting their papers. Those responsibilities should reside in the classroom and not in the Writing Center. Not only would it save the student from confusion, frustration and wasted time, but the tutors would be able to concentrate on what the student really needs help with.
I feel like a broken record, but again I too agree with Holly. Many instructors put in their syllabus that they assignments will be graded on grammar (other things as well). Many students have the basic knowledge of the use of grammar, but how many students understand what a comma splice is? I have noticed frustration in students and in myself when that part of the syllabus is read.
ReplyDelete"Expand, expand, expand." This is another comment that writers face. I found best to always ask who, what, when, where, why and how. How did I learn this? Where did I find this information? These simple questions are easy ways to help a student understand what the instructor means when they write "expand."
As consultants, we are to be guides. It may be hard at times, but you learn to find little tricks to end the frustration and help the student understand.
I really like what the authors said about not understanding the teacher's comments. I can remember having that problem in my English classes in High School. Often I felt that my teacher's comments failed to recognize what I had been trying to do. I wanted to argue with the teacher; try to make her see my reasoning. Sometimes it was just that I didn't really understand writing as much as I thought I did. It can be difficult to really sit down and accept what your teacher says about your "wonderful" (at least in your eyes) paper. But by doing that you allow yourself to learn from the constructive criticism. Sometimes we just take all those red marks too personally. It is my goal to help the students I tutor to understand this, and to learn from their mistakes, rather than seeing them as proof that they are a poor writer.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the author’s comment that "students may see the negative as the real reason for the grade and therefore the most important part."
ReplyDeleteAlthough I have not begun tutoring in the Madonna writing center yet, I have experience helping students with their writing. I have heard students angrily comment that they still got a bad grade on their paper, even after they "Fixed everything that the teacher said."
I think that many times students really do think that if the teacher edits his or her paper, the specific comments of the teacher are all that needs to be fixed. As the author of this article pointed out, it is important for me as a tutor to ask questions and make comments that help the student understand HOCs. As the tutor helps turn the student's focus from specific comments, to the big picture, I think pleasing his/her teacher will seem like a much less daunting task!
I enjoyed the idea of "the third voice in the session." I would like tutors to remember my instructor's voice when they tutor my students in the Writing Center. Probably one of the best ways to hear my voice is to read the instructions I write for my students. (They'll be in the ESL binder just inside the WC door.) Often my comments on a student's paper will refer to areas in which the student hasn't followed my instructions. I think this disconnect between what I want and what the student produces happens because students often choose to free write rather than following instructions. Maybe it's just too hard to slow down the pace of campus life in order to read the instructions? I think students glance at the instructions to get the gist instead of reading for thorough comprehension. Teachers will tell you that often just reading the instructions and following them is half the battle when it comes to being a successful student. A good example happened a couple of semesters ago when several students tried to turn in descriptive paragraphs which contained little or no description. I don't think they read my instructions.
ReplyDeleteI thought the idea Frances highlighted about turning instructor's comments into questions was quite interesting. In a way, this seems what I really am doing with my comments. When I write, "Make your topic sentence more specific," there is probably an underlying question, "Can you make your topic sentence more specific?" Chances are I probably already mentioned that topic sentences are supposed to be specific in class. I might have even passed out a handout or pointed out something in our textbook about narrowing down topics. My student might be better helped if the tutor says, "Tell me what your instructor said about the topics for your paragraphs (papers) in class. What did she say about narrowing down the topics?" Wait for a response. If possible, don't accept "nothing" for an answer. You could also ask the student to show you his/her textbook. You could show the student information about topics in their textbook. By working with the materials used in the student's class, you encourage him/her to take charge of his/her learning.
What if we take a look at where the root of the issue may lie...
ReplyDeleteAs an English teacher, I find it difficult to write comments on students' papers because their initial reaction is not to read them! The majority of my middle schoolers assume that the comment is negative, which is not true. I use the "sandwich" method:
praise
constructive criticism
praise
Where do they get the idea that written feedback is negative? Perhaps its because when they receive assignments, tests, quizzes, etc. from a teacher there lies a grade at the top.
Although these students have almost a decade before they are in our University Writing Centers, written communication from a teacher has a negative conotation. And why? What happens between then and now? Must High School English teachers be the bridge between the negative reaction of students toward teacher comments, and the misunderstandings and misinterpretations that cause them frustration? "Round and round she goes, where she stops nobody knows".
First of all, I want to piggy-back on what both Cassie and Marian said. I think that students often assume that the teacher comments contain the secret formula to get an "A". They think that if they "fix" everything the teacher mentioned, they'll automatically get a good grade. It almost seems like they think they just have to fill in the blank with the correct word or form of punctuation and the paper is "fixed". This goes along with what Marian said: the students have this simplified view of revision because they don't read or read but close don't pay attention to what the instructor said in his/her comments.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason students may have this fix-the-grammar attitude is, like we've been saying FOREVER, that in grade/high school they're taught that the most important part of writing is grammar. We need some kind of propaganda ministry that will "propagandize" students so they understand that the most important part of writing is the organization and presentation of ideas. Instructors don't assign papers because they love catching college students grammar mistakes, they assign papers to help students develop their critical thinking and communication skills without which one cannot be successful in a career or as an American citizen.
Nowadays, people often have a very compartmentalized view of college--business oriented college--"I don't need to take writing classes because I'm going to be an engineer/math teacher/whatever and don't need to know how to write--we don't use grammar in math problems." (And I'm afraid Humanities/Eng majors often have the opposite view.) So many people have lost appreciation for a classical (liberal arts) education.
Melissa’s comments from "The Writing Lab" regarding her experience with Bill (assigned student) and being “…able to help Bill take a step back, catching a glimpse of his own writing process” is an important reminder for me as a newbie in our Writing Center.
ReplyDeleteThis article is demonstrative in assisting me to remember that I am not to be a fixer-upper. An effective coach is one who guides the students, seeking help with their assignments, by utilizing a potpourri of methods to reach the students’ goals. By Melissa observing the student’s body language, tone of voice, and attitude, she is also able to decide her best strategy for reaching this student.
First, stretching Bill’s brain by applying the method of asking appropriate questions about his paper initiated the process of revision in an affirmative manner. Second, her strategy to follow addressing a grammatical issue toward the end of the session while, lastly, sharing that she (Melissa) is guilty of the same mistake, culminated in raising her student’s self-confidence (not the only one to make mistakes) and understanding of his teacher’s concerns. Thus, the student sees the big picture.
I am convinced that understanding and remembering to apply more than one coaching technique will definitely bring optimal results to our students’ writing and confidence levels.
Ultimately, this article reminds me to immerse myself in the goal of coaching students to be proficient writers as opposed to just submitting better papers.
"Expand the Audience: Excellence in L2 Writing"
ReplyDeleteWhen I read Susan and Marian's excellent article, I was struck again by how much we're asking of our ESL students. Not only are these students struggling with content, organization, and mechanics--we're also inviting them to address a seemingly imaginary audience.
A couple of points really hit home for me:
1. How much a sense of audience can focus a student's (ESL or native speakers) choices concerning subject, content, style, and word choice. In this way, what seems at first like an added complication may offer clarity to student writers.
2. The challenge of moving into reader-based writing. For native speakers, it's often a matter of developing more intellectual sophistication, but it becomes more complicated when reader-based writing is not part of one's cultural background.
3. The importance of Writing Center tutors. Not only are we supportive readers, we also represent that vague audience. By revising text so we can more readily access it, ESL (and other) students are making their work more accessible to all their readers.
We've all been students. What do you remember about moving from writer-based to reader-based writing?
-- Frances